Technically People
Technically People

Episode · 3 months ago

Mitigate Interview & Hiring Bias


Every stage of hiring — from your job postings to your interview questions—is vulnerable to bias, particularly for employers that need to hire tech and tech-adjacent roles with expediency. If companies seek to foster DEI and gain the benefits that come with a diverse culture, they must put in place formal structures to de-bias hiring. In this episode, Shannon Hogue, Global Head of Solutions Engineering at Karat, outlines a model from her work and offers key strategies you can implement as early as your next interview.

Karat performs the first round of technical interviews for employers, aiming to make interviews better — more equitable, predictive, fair and enjoyable. In addition to designing and testing every interview question, Karat helps clients build rubrics and align on necessary competencies, enabling them to make decisions based on qualifications.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

- Shannon’s nontraditional background and the bias she herself encountered in her early career

- The use of structured interview protocols to ensure candidates pass through on the strength of their qualifications

- How to build a diverse pipeline of professionals from underrepresented communities

- The importance of setting and aligning on competencies and a hiring bar

- Inclusive language for recruitment materials and job posts

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Women Who Code

- Brilliant Black Minds

Find every episode of Technically People on Apple, Spotify and more, or on our website, and join us on LinkedIn.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Technically People in your favorite podcast player.

Welcome to technically people acommunity conversation by and four workplace futurist brought to you bythe tech recruitment platform built in the podcast features, insights fromleaders, thinkers and doers on the vanguard of building human centeredworkplaces of the future along the way you'll hear concepts thatwill stop you in your tracks, concepts that inspire you to ask yourself.What's the most future forward way to approach my people leadership, we allknow the future of work isn't waiting around. So, let's get on with the show, welcome to the podcast. This istechnically people, i'm your co host, tiffany myers and i'm here withsheridan or how are you doing today, i'm doing great tiffany? How about you?I'm excited to set up this conversation with our guest, shannon hog and i'mgoing to just go ahead and introduce her. Shannon hogue is the global headof solutions. Engineering at carrot and carrots has the aim to make interviewsmore equitable, more predictive, more fair. This really caught my attention.More enjoyable carrot performs the first round of technical interviews forcompanies and it puts every single question through rigorous data backscientific testing. It also helps clients get aligned on importantfactors. So what are the competences we need? We have to align around them andagree on them. What kind of rubric can we create as a company to mitigate bias?So these are the sorts of things that carrot helps its clients. Do thesesteps in sure candidates that pass through on the basis of qualifications,not because they look like me, shannon- has a passion for this topic that isinfectious and today she's, going to share more about how kara does it andprovide some practical strategies that all of us can apply to day shan andwelcome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here, andi think i could talk about this all day, so i think we're have some fun. It'strue. I've talked to you before, and i know you have a lot to teach. I thoughtit would be good to share just a few bits of research to add some upfrontcontext. So, first, depending on who you talk to or what venue you'rereading there are about nine to thirteen different types of biases.There is also a whole collection of studies that examines a practice that,more than anything, underscores how dire a problem this is. There are somebipod dates who scrub details that can signal race out of their resumes, sothat would be names for example, or affiliation. There's a whole passle ofresearch that has found that resumes that have been scrubbed resumes withoutracial cues do get more callbacks stunning set of research, unless wealso know that there are perceptual issues. So from an august two thousandand twenty report, we know that forty five percent of bipod employees thoughtthat bias plays a major role in hiring and interviewing at their company, butonly twenty seven percent of white tack.

Employees thought the same thing.That's a big disparity! So obviously there's a lot here that underscores howcritically your work is. Shannon. Now that i have teated up, i am going toask sheridan to take it from here shannon. So i think you and i both cameto tack through non traditional means and i have a pretty useless degree inmedieval studies and thankfully i learned the ropes as i went along, andyou also have a really interesting background and i'd love for you just towalk us through that, because i think it underscores how we need to givetalented people who may come from non traditional backgrounds more ofopportunity. And can you just tell me how that shape some of the work you'redoing it current yeah? Absolutely so i am a very proud chicago and i grew backup in chicago. I'm a blue counter kid. I love the cubbies. I love deep dish,meat and potatoes dad a girl, and i grew up with the thought that i wouldneed to go to college at some point. But of course my family wouldn't beable to afford it. When the mid s, i was afforded the opportunity to startwriting software professionally. That was insane. I was in a special classesand i got online and give dad a little bit when i could. At some point, idrove my old eighty seven dog shadow out to san francisco and startedworking, and i have to tell you over time. It was a little bit nerve racking.Essentially, i was surrounded by folks who had gone to mit or stanford easternoklahoma university, and i was worried that i couldn't compete and i carriedthat throughout my career, and i still sometimes do that piece of paper isjust staring at you and i think it's an unhealthy relationship with collegeeducation, but i was because of tech afforded the opportunity to change myfamily's lives. I am the oldest of four. I was able to help them through collegehelp, take care of my parents and frankly, it's just a near and dear tomy heart now to be involved with carrot. No carts mision is to unlockopportunity and in me unlock opportunity for folks. Like me, peoplewho are trying to change their family's lives and tech can do that, whatever wecan do to not just bring diversity and diversity of thought which will changethe world, but also to help folks who want to and work hard to change theirfamilies lives, actually do it and the happiest person alive to be working inthis business. It's so interesting, coming from a nontraditional backgroundand certainly steve jobs, is the poster child for having not finished yourdegree. But i have once had a boss tell me that i needed to go back and getanother nba, because i had not gone to a top ten school and then my career wasthwarted forever in tack. Because of that- and i just was stunned to hearthat- and i just was curious, had you encountered that kind of pedigree biasin your career? Oh yeah, absolutely just like a lot of folks out there, i'mnot sure exactly how many jobs or roles that i've missed out on, because idon't have a top ten computer science... My resume a d, but i can't tellyou things that have happened. An interview so i have had folks walk intoan interview room and they look at my resume and they look at me and theylook at my resume and they go oh gosh. I must be in the wrong room, and i'vealso had folks come in and amid way through, ask me out and hit on me. I'vebeen in situations where i've done the work, and i proved myself and i wasgoing for promotion and i've. Had male colleagues go. Oh, it must be. Nicehappening female and anime parts, but not as polite. So these are things thatso many folks deal with every day and whether it's penry or gender vice it'ssylib. I also have had people, so you have the experience. Now i've beendoing my job about a quarter of a century. Maybe you should go to schooland get your nba so that you have something to put you in that next levelat work. I've done the job e. I know how to do my job. It can be a littlebit depressing, even for somebody who's filing the business for twenty fiveyears and gets to do. Talks about these things i feel like we should gettogether and put a ban on the sentence. I must be in the wrong room becausenever a good thing when that sentence is heard, let's shift gears a littlebit to talk about the kind of bias that you're talking about in a macro kind of way. I know that havingyour heart and the right place, matters bias doesn't care about any of that.It's and i think that carrot relies a little bit more on science and datathan on good intentions, though i have to say, shannon you're all goodintentions, but but you're working with third parties, you're doing validity,testing you're, putting in place really rigorous quality control mechanism. Soi wanted to see, in your experience, doing all of that rigorous testing. Ifyou had an example of an approach or a question that you discovered was biasedthat you needed to correct gosh. Yes, there are so many instances i'll give acouple of examples here, the most important thing to understand aboutasking questions and just simplify it and make sure that you're testing onecompetency at a time. So if you're going to somebody and you're asking himto like speed, read a four page brief and then create working code, are youtesting their coding abilities? Are you testing their reading comprehensionabilities? I don't know if i could, in a thirty minute period, read four pagesand build some code at the end of it. The other types of things that you runinto our coxwell ask questions around concepts that they learned at these toptech schools they'll be very familiar, especially with the types of responsesand they're, expecting somebody to use the same direction that they would useand use the same concepts that they've learned in school. It could be just asinnocent but as asking somebody to build or recreate a game that they neednot be familiar with or didn't grow up with go to the minimum of what you're.Looking for the competency that you're looking for it makes things easier. Youknow what to ask how to set...

...expectations with a candidate. You workaround all of the times that we run into, which is women and people ofcolor or people have underrepresented communities. We are and can beconditioned of our time not to even ask clarification questions. So if you gointo an interview- and you say okay, i want to do xyz and you're talking aboutbuilding a game that i've never heard of and in my entire life it takes metwo or three clicks to ask clarification questions if i do even atall- and of course is what sets you up for failure m. So one of the big thingsthat we're hearing it's tuck unemployment is basically zero and youand i kind of came into attack in the s the big afore time where they were like.If you could even make your computer say hello, you could get a job intechnology because they were so desperate for those skills and thiswhat we're going through right now in two thousand and twenty one is evenmore than i have ever seen. The great resignation is coming. People areleaving jobs to try to have a quality of life. I think we all had anopportunity to be introspective in two thousand and twenty to find out. Whatdo we really want from life and companies had decided that hey, maybethey weren't going to hire as much in twenty twenty and now are desperate forto talent, because the companies that thrived were those that were tackforward? Does this hiring euphoria that we're going through right now? Doesthat create more opportunity for diverse candidates, or does it createmore opportunity for bias? Is hiring managers try to just get somebody inthat seat bo? Absolutely? It should and does in some cases create a lot ofopportunity because there some great companies out there that have beenbuilding relationships with h, pc us and different organizations all overthe world that advocate for hiring people from under representedcommunities and people with non traditional backgrounds and they're,even building relationships with code academies in order to do that. But thatbeing said, especially for companies where there's a lot of competition toget into the company, it's really easy to just put butts and seats and try andshrink the process in order to hire competitive candidates. You need toshrink or shorten the funnel and the amount of time that it takes. You topresent them with an offer. So if you think about that, a lot of bies can beinjected and can create short cuts in the process and one of the major waysthat people are doing. This is potentially using artificialintelligence for resume screening and that immediately a create tosignificant amounts of vice, because it's a way to buy us out and filter outpeople that are coming from cod academies or didn't work at a famecompany and so on it. So they often times are putting in their idealcandidate than that ideal. Candidate. Probably a missur, especially with thefilter set folks, are putting in place my suggestion to people's always beproactive if you're, hiring and a sagen rat- and you haven't, begun the processof building those relationships going to the conferences making sure thatfolks know that you're in falls in...

...organizations that broaden the amountof opportunity or for people like me, then you're probably a little bit late.But you need to start now expedience anything open, sedor for mistakes,expediency and hiring really opens the doors for bias. Bias is a short cut andif we need to move fast, we need those short cuts, a little bit off topic, buti have the podcast question of the day, which is the motorcycles in thebackground of your house. Oh, are those hondas or harleys an os we had do i?Actually it's not even motorcycle. Had it. I call in the dirt bike mafia i've been using that turf for a littlebit, because i'm meetings and i'll have to mute, and it goes crazy for what yousaid. Oh my god, in sigo, that's the dirt mbia they're iwer between two p mand five p m five in san francisco in an area where we have just a ton ofdirt bikes running a muck. But it sounds like it's a bigger problemaround here. These yeah i lived in brooklyn for a while and that thesummer brought them out anyway. Another podcast might shut down the dirt bakemafia, but they are so welcome an technically people. Also. I love whatpi inclusive ity for all that's right back to business, but i mentionedearlier how very rigorous all of your testing was and that you have all theseformal structures in place, and you've already mentioned how important it isto get a team to a line on competencies. We know that you work with them tocreate rubrics and both of these components are super important in whatyour aim is, which is to make interviews fair, make them equitable.Can you break down the nuts and bolts of competencies and rubricks? Absolutely so it's just like when we'rehiring, we started okay. We need to hire an engineer, but in a lot of times-and we don't learn how to do this- we're not trained in anjeer ng how tobe a manager or much less to hire much less to interview, and so it's reallyimportant to sit with your team as a leader and say: okay, what are weactually looking for? What are the skill sets that we're looking for? Welooking for a back end developer with a language like python. Are we lookingfor somebody who designs the user experience and so on and then codifythat say, okay, great, we want this and we want x amount of seniority and thendecide with your team what level of sonority you're looking for, and if youdon't do that, it's really simple: to have a group of folks going to a roomwith someone who's charismatic or is a lot like them. We like to say: oh, theylook like me and they went to the same school or they lived in chicago. Theylove the cups and they're a lot like me and i'm amazing. So they must beamazing and then you come back into a room and you realize that they may notnecessarily have those confidences that you had decided on in the first place.You know what this just is just enables you to go. Okay, i know they're reallygreat, but we really need somebody...

...who's rights in this specific language.With this specific seniority and on the flip side of that, what you're doing ismaking sure you have wid the likelihood that you'll get oh yeah, you know iknow she can do python. I know we said that, but i don't know i wasn't reallybibing with her, so it's both ends where it's possible to get it wrong. You've helped us understand why a clearset of simplified competencies are really important. Let's hear aboutcreating rubric gosh, i think probably this is the most important thing thatyou can take away from today. Once you find copse absolutely have to have arubrica carrot. This is what we do for a living. We have human beings, we callthem interview engineers and they have to fill out seventy one differentinputs throughout the interview process, not just speaking to whether or notthey got to the question. But what was the question that they answered? Howdid they answer it and was it in line with the levelling it's a contractbefore you get started that says? Okay, if i ask a question- and they respondthis way, then there are a beginner, but if they respond this way, we willconsider that intermediate and if they touch on these concepts than we thinkof them as a fane, an essentially what you're doing there is that you'rebuilding, not just a less biased process but you're, also building adefensible position. One of the things i really like about karoti that you'reconstantly working with their customers to help them iterate and improve. Butwhen you look at that candidate journey or hiring practices that go awry, howmight we know that we have a problem and is there any advice for peopleleaders who may be struggling? Where should we start to look if things arenot going as planned? You have fifty fifty candidates and people have underrepresented the communities and those who are not, and a hundred percent ofyour hirers are in espectin category, so one of the most hastes to this justreally understanding your funnel and the understanding when candidates aredropping out of the process. My suggestion is to value wait every partof the process of the job posting, how many people from under representedcommunities are actually applying, and you make adjustments to increase thatnumber if it's not in line with what it should be in the market after thatscreen and sure that you're, not screening out folks, that are fromether represented communis that seem to have the right qualifications beforethey even get to that initial text green. But it's also important, notjust in the text train to watch every single interviewer at your company. Ifyou have candidates from the communities that you're looking to hirefrom that are constantly dropping off at that same person in the loop or aspecific point, then you probably need to reevaluate whether or not you'vedone the right amount of training to your interviewers or even take a lookat your culture on site. I would say the other indication is listen to thecandidate to make sure we a cared. We...

...actually will ask the candidate to fillout a survey afterwards, it's pretty extensive, because obviously we want tomake sure that we capture all of their view back and we continue to besuccessful and they have an enjoyable. I think just me to talked about that inthe beginning and enjoy a bowl experience and that's really important,but this is also a chance for them to be able to speak to the experienceitself, and so you may want to prote them a little bit on their feedback onspecific interveres. It ties in so clearly with what we're hearing aboutdei in general overall, which is that it's there is no one size fits allapproach and if you're trying to go at it, i've done x, y z and i'm doneyou're, not making change. And so i love the idea that you're iteration is actually acknowledgment.So you're, not only acknowledging that bias exists and it's a huge problem,but you're acknowledging that this is like a process and not like adestination. Will where'll stop and be done and be perfect. I just see youknow so much tie and there now another practice that carrot facilitates thati'd love to hear a little bit more about is setting a hiring bar. So tellme what that looks like yeah. Absolutely. This is really importantbecause remember, we talked a little bit earlier about those the rubric andhow we decide what are our competence? We build this rue berk, but then wealso write out the potential answers and how you level those answers. So i'mgoing to give you an example and then they'll talk about why this is reallyimportant. So let's say that i'm hiring a leve level, three job developer and ihave a set of questions around java. Making sure that you have a preestablished, hiring bar means that essentially, in order to determinewhether or not this person is a level three you need to before the ineverprocess have determined what a level three looks like. So if a level threeis that out of the five questions that we asked about java, maybe four orthree of them have to be intermediate. Then that's a level three. So then, youbuild that into the process and insure. Okay, folks are figuring out, they'refilling out the rubric they're going back in. They have this defensibleposition and this candidate came in. We think their level three, but they onlyanswered two questions: intermediate the rest or beginner, probably not alevel three, even if we like that person, but if a candidate came in andthey answered three questions as we determined before they started theinterview as intermediate that fits the hole. Three. Okay, great everybodywants to hire this person whom we've leveled them. Accordingly, this isextremely important because what happens? Oftentimes advises people sayyou know, they're, just not capable of doing the job and in fact i think iheard at some point when i was hired. There was a leadership team at one ofthe companies that i was working at and just as anecdotally, i was hired by avp of engineering that understood that there were some biases and issueswithin the team. That being said, when...

...i got the job afterwards, he told methat, even though i had gone into the interview and answered questions, thereis no monitoring there until i know that i answered the questionsaccordingly, but they went back to the leadership team and said: oh, i likeher as a person, but she'd be more of a cheer leader rather than an actualcontributor. I yes right yeah euty important to have built those rules andhave them agreed upon by the team before you even get started that by andalso by your team but verse which, as a manger, you should bring yourselves alltogether and determine what's beginner intermediate and advanced that by anensures that they can't come back and go. Oh, i'm not sure if they're reallyintermediate really, because you agreed with all of us that if they gave thisanswer- which they did, they are an intermediate job, a developer. It'sdoctor when we talked about quick hiring, can introduce by us. Thegreatest companies are able to get the right talent at the right time, andthat means that they really have a strong pipe line, and that pipeline isdiverse and robust and full of people who already have an affinity for brand.Can you talk to me about how you might go about making sure that your pipeline is fully diverse and that you have different voices and point of views inthat pipeline yeah? Absolutely. This is such a hardquestion. There's so many experts out there, and i can tell you some of thepieces that we've heard in our research and working with our clients and someof the suggestions that we make, but essentially from growing your pipe lineperspective, you need to start early build relationships with h bc used towork with some of the organizations in the tech community, women who code andso on that really amplify candidates who are coming from the background thatyou're looking for. I also personally suggest folks build the culture thatthey're looking for that they're looking to build, and so do that onsite diversity, training ensure that your company is involved in these typesof conversations in tact. They're really easy to be a part of you justneed to show up and do that and ask questions. There are a whole lot oforganizations that are asking leadership from different large techcompanies to come in and do brown tables just to discuss this or just beopen to knowing that you need to have an understanding of that culture ofchange and technology and be open and willing to take the time to do that. Sofor us, a carrige building relationships with tanty codingorganizations is important, but we also are putting our money where our mouthis. We have a program called brilliant black mine, so we've donated over amillion dollars to helping under represented communities, learn how tointerview as their in university, and so we've dipped over a million dollarsworth of interviews for folks to come and practice and get feedback from ourinterview. Engineers. Also internally. We've all donated our time as much aspossible to meeting with students and candidates from other representedcommunities and giving them feedback...

...and letting them ask us questions i'llend with a quote from my colleague and who is the head of brilliant blackwines program. They always say that we need to feed the root and not just pickthe fruit. That is a tough quote to follow. I love it. He is wistar. I learnedevery single day, the more i learned, the more i realize i don't knowanything and she's, just a wealth of knowledge and patience and kindnesswith me. I'd want to build a little bit off all these ideas of what we can doin terms of pipe lining, but there's also messaging, which is just asimportant, and that can be a matter of making sure that your and playerbranding and all of the messaging around it bears out that you're, acompany that cares about hiring promoting retaining people fromunderrepresented groups that you're walking the talk part of that messagingis the job post tell us. What we should be aware of. This is the beginning ofyour pipe line. I want to start with a quick addicti because is something thatwill probably resonate with both of you, but certainly resonates with the folksin the candidates that we speak to, and that is that most women and people ofether represented communities. If they don't need just one of your criteria,they will not apply for that job. I just make sure to pair down therequirements for the position as much as possible, and there are a lot oftools that can help you do that. The most important thing there is thatlanguage matters, and in that vein, the other thing that you should definitelydo is make sure that you're reviewing your job posting for this hyper maclinlanguage, and you can hear emails by the way, your marketing email, ifyou're saying ten engineer and coding, inja and rock star and rocket ship,it's of for women and people have under represented communities. But the flipside of that is that if you remove that type of language and if you removesomething that you would traditionally feel as a masculine language, itcertainly doesn't turn men off. He'll still have men applying they're goingto apply anyways, and so my suggestion is cater your language and your jobposting towards the under represented community that you're looking for. Iguess the only other thing there too, is that i think it's about eightypercent of votes that respond to job postings are men and so you're notgoing to lose out from our previous conversations about this, in particular,some of those words that would be considered more feminine or words likeempathy and communication and collaboration, and why would that turna man off to has such a less extreme vibe than coding, ninja femininelanguage is actually more on the neutral side or necessary to get thejob done side. I completely agree, and actually, if you don't mind, if i jumpin a little bit there and we talked a little bit about building the culturethat you're looking for, like someone has an adverse reaction to empathy.It's probably not the kind of culture...

...pier that you want to have more diversecandidates, be interested in working, it's funny, because i myself have useda lot of that language like rock star and tenax, and if you read any of thebooks about the netflix book, it's really pervasive and you want to showthat it is a really vibrant culture and that's such a good lesson for all of usto learn. Are there any others that we need to learn? A thousand percentabsolutely train your interviewers. We talk with about this all the time withour clients and and also insure that, the folks that you're saying or arepracticing people really care about things that are put on theirperformance rarces, and i can tell you from personal experience. I've neverhad interviewing is part of my performance review. I've never hadbefore carried interview, training, i've never been judged on myinterviewing skills and in fact i always founded a bit of a hindranceunless that person was really fun to talk to. Of course i go in and ask thesame three questions, so i was asking for a decade and go back to my work. Iwould suggest not just training them, but adding that as part of theirperformance review. If you do have the opportunity to record those interviews,were corrette interviews and review them for quality purposes. We have asecondary quality control. The process where a second interviewer will watch avideo and ensure that the rework that was being filled out was actually beingfilled out according to how folks are certified, and so, if you have thesuction, reverie and you're aligned on your confidence, easy, you know whatquestions are supposed to be: asking: try and record your interviews andreview them for quality, especially if you start to see what we talked aboutearlier, which is a drop off at a specific interviewer in the process, orthat a candidate came back and said that they had issues. This is your wayto go back and understand why they were giving that feedback. Was it becausewhat some people think, which is all they did really poorly an they don'tlike me, because i asked them a tough question or is it you have a problem inyour interviewer training internally so important? I think when i think aboutyour o two minute takeaways. That would be one of mine to make sure that yourinterviewers are trained and really know what they're looking for. So whatwould you tell our listeners- or you know the quick takeaways that theycould do today to improve their candidate experience for diverse andunderrepresented candidates? I would love for people to take four thingsaway from what we talked about today. Make sure that you give interviewing atyour company an owner if, by assigning an engineer or a person in yourorganization, to optimize each part of your interview and hiring process,you're, essentially creating accountability for consistent inquality and fast practices, and, of course, if the enjoyable practices aswell. The second thing that i would tell people to do is centralize yourinterviewing and training. Any time that you have decentralized processesin consistency can ensue an...

...inconsistency in your interviewers area danger to your business. Don't just train in the general kind of guidelines.Oh here's, a high level rubric. We want you to look at this part of our missionstatement and look for this court value, and maybe we want some job in there.That's okay, make sure that you, you actually train your interviewers orpeople that are going to be portaging and interviews as specific questionsand ensuring that you set and quality your standards and making sure that youaudit your interview. You can just talk about that. If you can't record it,maybe you give feedback, look for those inconsistencies and the interviews orthe funnel, or maybe you have two people in the room and you do apearedto interviews to ensure that they're holding each other accountable. Thelast one is to build your process for tateft tom. They want. I am an engineerby trade. I will tell you over and over again that it may not always land, buti promise you that you should be making data driven decisions and if you buildthose confidences, you set the river. You build that structure and that rigorinto your process from the beginning and from early stages anywhere fromyour recruitment to your job descriptions all the way through thefunnel you'll, be able to iterate and optimize over time and not waste yourengineer's time and your time on unpredictive, interviewers orinterviewing even the wrong candidates for your business, especially if you'retrying to make an overhaul to the culture and ensure that you're,including diverse candidates in your pan, shannon. I just want to thank youso much for sharing this thorough insight into how we can mitigate by astring, the pre interview, the hiring process and also like to give a specialshout out to shannon's motorcycles. I have a lot of moto people in my big italianfamily, so you know that they will be listening as well and happy to hear themotorcycles, but in all seriousness, you've. Given our listeners a ton ofinspiration, i just know it so. Thank you shannon. How could our listenersget in touch with you if they want to have more in depth conversation withyou or find out more about carrot? Oh gosh yeah, so first, you can alwaysfind me linked in shannon hope, brown. I say you can also email me. It'schanot shandon at carret k, a r, a t, com and, of course, you're welcome tostar conversations and follow me on twitter. That's at s h, o g. U e andspeaking of listeners. Thank you as well for tuning in. You can learn moreabout the show at technically people com, and that is where you cansubscribe on your favorite podcast player. If you turn out to be a big fanof the show- and we hope you will- we would be over the man if he'd give us afive star review. It's the kind of support that can really make a hugedifference for our show shoot us an email, a technically people at bilton,and we will see you next week when...'ll bring you another conversationfrom thought. Leaders about the future as of work built in is a tech recruitment platform.That's in constant dialogue with leaders about the future of tech,bilton's podcast. Technically people expands those conversations now fellowfuturist create and lead exceptional workplaces, environments that inspirein demand tech professionals to join your company and thrive to learn howbuilding can help your company attract festing class professionals, visitemployers, dot, bilton you've been listening to technicallypeople, a community conversation about the future of work. If you want to hearmore cutting edge ideas about creating human center work, places subscribe onyour favorite, podcast player and you'll never miss an episode and if you're over the moon about whatyou've heard we'd be honored. If you took the time to give us a five starreview so signing off until we meet again in the future,.

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