Technically People
Technically People

Episode · 10 months ago

Mitigate Interview & Hiring Bias


Every stage of hiring — from your job postings to your interview questions—is vulnerable to bias, particularly for employers that need to hire tech and tech-adjacent roles with expediency. If companies seek to foster DEI and gain the benefits that come with a diverse culture, they must put in place formal structures to de-bias hiring. In this episode, Shannon Hogue, Global Head of Solutions Engineering at Karat, outlines a model from her work and offers key strategies you can implement as early as your next interview.

Karat performs the first round of technical interviews for employers, aiming to make interviews better — more equitable, predictive, fair and enjoyable. In addition to designing and testing every interview question, Karat helps clients build rubrics and align on necessary competencies, enabling them to make decisions based on qualifications.

In this episode, we’ll discuss:

- Shannon’s nontraditional background and the bias she herself encountered in her early career

- The use of structured interview protocols to ensure candidates pass through on the strength of their qualifications

- How to build a diverse pipeline of professionals from underrepresented communities

- The importance of setting and aligning on competencies and a hiring bar

- Inclusive language for recruitment materials and job posts

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Women Who Code

- Brilliant Black Minds

Find every episode of Technically People on Apple, Spotify and more, or on our website, and join us on LinkedIn.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Technically People in your favorite podcast player.

Welcome to technically people, a community conversation by and for workplace futurists brought to you by the tech recruitment platform built in. The podcast features insights from leaders, thinkers and doers on the vanguard building human centered workplaces of the future. Along the way, you'll hear concepts that will stop you in your tracks, concepts that inspire you to ask yourself, what's the most future forward way to approach my people leadership? We all know the future of work isn't waiting around, so let's get on with the show. Welcome to the PODCAST. This is technically people. I'm your cohost, Tiffany Myers, and I'm here with Sheridan or. How are you doing today? I'm doing great, tiffany. How about you? I'm excited to set up this conversation with our guests Shannon Hogue, and I'm going to just go ahead and introduce her. Shannon Hogue is the global head of Solutions Engineering at carrot and carrots has the aim to make interviews more equitable, more predictive more fair. This really caught my attention. More enjoyable. Carrott performs the first round of technical interviews for companies and it puts every single question through rigorous data back scientific testing. It also helps clients get aligned on important factors. So what are the competencies we need? We have to align around them and agree on them. What kind of rubric can we create as a company to mitigate bias? So these are the sorts of things that carrott helps its clients do. These steps ensure candidates that passed through on the basis of qualifications, not because they look like me. Shannon has a passion for this topic that is infectious, and today she's going to share more about how Carrott does it and provide some practical strategies that all of us can apply to day the Shannon, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here and I think I could talk about this all day. So I think we're gonna have some fun. It's true. I've talked to you before and I know you have a lot to teach. I thought it would be good to share just a few bits of research to add some upfront context. So first, depending on who you talk to or what venue you're reading, there are about nine to thirteen different types of biases. There is also a whole collection of studies that examines a practice that, more than anything, underscores how dire a problem this is. There are some biopact candidates who scrub details that can signal race out of their resumes, so that would be names, for example, or affiliation. Or there's a whole passil of research that has found that resumes that have been scrubbed, resumes without racial queues do get more callbacks. Stunning set of research. And last we also know that there are perceptual issues. So from an August two thousand and twenty report, we know that forty five percent of BIPAC TAC employees thought that bias plays a major role in hiring an interviewing at their company,...

...but only twenty seven percent of white tech employees thought the same thing. That's a big disparity. So obviously there's a lot here that underscores how critically your work is, Shannon. Now that I have teated up, I am going to ask Sheridan to take it from here. Shannon, so I think you and I both came to talk through non traditional means and have a pretty useless degree in medieval studies and thankfully I learned the ropes as I went along and you also have a really interesting background and I'd love for you just to walk us through that because I think it underscores how we need to give talented people who may come from non traditional backgrounds more of opportunity, and can you just tell me how that shape some of the work you're doing it? Carrot? Yeah, absolutely so. I am a very proud Chicago and I grew back up in Chicago. I'm a blue collar kid. I love the cubbies, I love deep dish meet and potatoes. Get a girl and I grew up with a thought that I would need to go to college at some point, but of course my family wouldn't be able to afford it. When the mid S, I was afforded the opportunity to start writing software professionally, that was insane. I was in a special classes and I got online and geeped out a little bit when I could. At some point I drove my old eighty seven dodd shadow out to San Francisco and started working, and I have to tell you, over time it was a little bit nerve racking. Essentially, I was surrounded by folks who had gone to mit or stay AFORD, our eastern Oklahoma University and I was worried that I couldn't compete and I carried that throughout my career and I still sometimes do. That piece of paper is just staring at you and I think it's an unhealthy relationship with college education. But I was, because of tech, afforded the opportunity to change my family's lives. I am the oldest of for I was able to help them through college, help take care of my parents and, frankly, it's just a near and dear to my heart now to be involved with Carrott. Your carrots mission is to unlock opportunity, and and mean unlock opportunity for folks like me, people who are trying to change their families lives, and tech can do that. Whatever we can do to not just bring diversity and diversity of thought, which will change the world, but also to help folks who want to and work hard to change their families lives actually do it. I'm the happiest person allowed to be working in this business. It's so interesting coming from a non traditional background and a certainly Steve Jobs is the poster child for having not finished your degree, but I have once had a boss tell me that I needed to go back and get another MBA because I had not gone to a top ten school and that my career was thwarted forever in Tach because of that. And I just was stunned to hear that and I just was curious. Had you encountered that kind of pedigree by US in your career? Oh yeah, absolutely, just like a lot of folks out there, I'm not sure exactly how many jobs or rolls that I've missed out on because I don't have a... ten computer science cool on my resume and but I can't tell you things that have happened in interview. So I have had folks walk into an interview room and they look at my resume and they look at me and they look at my resume and they go, Oh gosh, I must be in the wrong room. And I've also had folks come in and midway through, ask me out and hit on me. I've been in situations where I've done the work and I've proved myself and I was going for promotion and I've had male colleagues go, Oh, it must be nice happening female and the oomy parts. But that is full light. So these are things that so many folks deal with every day, and whether it's pedigree or gender bias, it's still avis. I also have had people, so you have the experience stuff. I've been doing my job about a quarter of a century. Maybe you should go to school and get your Mba so that you have something to put you in that next level at work. I've done the job. I know how to do my job. It can be a little bit depressing even for somebody who's fit in the business for twenty five years and gets to do talks about these things. I feel like we should get together and put a ban on the sentence. I must be in the wrong room, because it's never a good thing when that sentence is heard. Let's shift gears a little bit to talk about the kind of bias that you're talking about in a macro kind of way. I know that having your heart and the right place matters. Bias doesn't care about any of that. It's and I think that carrot relies a little bit more on science and data than on good intentions. That I have to say, Shannon. You're all good intentions, but you're working with third parties, you're doing validity testing, you're putting in place really rigorous quality control mechanism. So I wanted to see in your experience doing all of that rigorous testing, if you had an example of an approach or a question that you discovered was biased that you needed to correct. Gosh, yes, there are so many instances. I'll give it a couple of examples here. The most important thing to understand about asking questions it's just a simplify it and make sure that you're testing one competency at a time. So if you're going to somebody and you're asking him to like, speed read a four page brief and then create working code, are you testing their coding abilities? Are you testing their reading a comprehension abilities? I don't know if I could, in a thirty minute period, read four pages and build some code at the end of it. The other types of things that you run into. Our folks will ask questions around concepts that they learned at these top tech schools. They'll be very familiar conceptually with the types of responses and they're expecting somebody to use the same direction that they would use and use the same concepts that they've learned in school. It could be just as innocent about as asking somebody to build or recreate a game that they may not be familiar with or didn't grow up with. Go to the minimum of what you're looking for, the competency that you're looking for. It makes things easier. You know what to ask, you how... set expectations with the candidate. You work around all of the Times that we run into, which is women and people of Color, people have underrepresented communities. We are and can be conditioned over time not to even ask clarification questions. So if you go into an interview and you say okay, I want to do x, Y Z, and you're talking about building a game that I've never heard of in my entire life, it takes me two or three clicks to ask clarification questions, if I do even at all. And, of course, as what sets you up for failure. So one of the big things that we're hearing. It's touch. Unemployment is basically zero, and you and I ken it came into a tack in the S, the big giphoric time, where they were like, if you could even make your computer say hello, you could get a job in technology, because they were so desperate for those skills. And this what we're going through right now in two thousand and twenty one is even more than I have ever seen. The great resignation is coming. People are leaving jobs to try to have a quality of life. I think we all had an opportunity to be introspective in two thousand and twenty to find out what do we really want from life, and companies had decided that hey, maybe they weren't going to hire as much in two thousand and twenty and now are desperate for talk talent, because the companies that thrived were those that were tack forward. Does this hiring euphoria that we're going through right now out? Does that create more opportunity for diverse candidates or does it create more opportunity for biases hiring managers try to just get somebody in that seat? Ooh, absolutely it should and does, in some cases, create a lot of opportunity, because are some great companies out there that have been building relationships with HBCUS and different organizations all over the world that advocate for hiring people from underrepresented communities and people with non traditional backgrounds, and they're even building relationships with Code Academies in order to do that. But that being said, especially for companies where there's a lot of competition to get into the company, it's really easy to just put butts and seeds and try and shrink the process. In order to hire competitive candidates, you'd need to shrink or shorten the funnel and the amount of time that it takes you to present them with an offer. So if you think about that, a lot of bias can be injected and can create shortcuts in the process. And one of the major ways that people are doing this is potentially using artificial intelligence for resume screening and that immediately it creates a significant amounts of ice because it's a way to bias out and filter out people that are coming from Code Academies or didn't work get a fag company and so on, and so they oftentimes are putting in their ideal candidate and that ideal candidate probably a misnomer, especially with the filters that folks are putting in place. My suggestion to people's always be proactive. If you're hiring and a saggering rate new haven't begun the process of building those relationships, going to the conferences, making sure that folks know that your in fall... organizations that broaden the amount of opportunity for people like me, then you're probably a little bit late, but you need to start now. EXPEDIENCY IN ANYTHING OPENS THE DOORS FOR MISTAKES. Expediency and hiring really opens the doors for bias. Bias is a short cut and if we need to move fast, we need those short cuts. A little bit off topic, but I have the podcast question of the day, which is the motorcycles in the background of your house. Huh, are those Hondas? Are Harley's and does we had? I? Actually, it's not even motorcycle. Had IT. I called them the dirt bike mafia time. It's really for me. I've been using that term for a little bit because on meetings and I'll have to mute and it goes crazy for what is that? Oh my God, and so go that's the dirt bike Mafia. Lays there anywhere between two PM and five PM. I'm in San Francisco in an area where we have just a ton of dirt bikes running mock but it sounds like it's a bigger problem around here these yes, I lived in Brooklyn for a while and that the summer brought them out. Anyway, another podcast might shut down the dirt bike mafia, but they are so welcome on technically people. So I love what inclusivety for all. That's right back to business. But I mentioned earlier how very rigorous all of your testing was and that you have all these formal structures in place. And you've already mentioned how important it is to get a team to align on competencies. We know that you work with them to create rubrics and both of these components are super important in what your aim is, which is to make interviews fair make them equitable. Can you break down the nuts and bolts of competencies and rubricks? Absolutely so. Usually, when we're hiring, we started okay, we need to hire an engineer, but in a lot of times and we don't learn how to do this. We're not trained in engineering how to be a manager, or much less to hire, much less to interview, and so it's really important to sit with your team as a leader and say, okay, what are we actually looking for? What are the skill sets that were looking for? We looking for a backend developer with a language like python? Are we looking for somebody who designs the user experience and so on and then codify? That's okay, great, we want this and we want x amount of seniority, and then decide with your team what level of seniority you're looking for. And if you don't do that, it's really simple to have a group of folks go into a room with someone who's charismatic or is a lot like them. We like to say, Oh, they look like me and they went to the same school or they lived in Chicago and they love the cubs and there are a lot like me and I'm amazing, so they must be amazing. And then you come back into a room and you realize that they may not necessarily have those competencies that you had decided on in the first place. You know, what this does is just enables you to go, okay, I know they're really great, but we really need...

...somebody who's rights in this specific language, with this specific sin you already and on the flip side of that, what you're doing is making sure you have why the likelihood that you'll get, Oh yeah, you know, I know she can do python. I know we said that, but I don't know. I wasn't really vibing with her. So it's both ends where it's possible to get it wrong. You've helped us understand why a clear set of simplified competencies are really important. Let's hear about creating rubrics. Gosh, I think probably this is the most important thing that you can take away from today. Once you to find Copss, you absolutely have to have a rubric at Carrot. This is what we do for a living. We have human beings, we call them interview engineers, and they have to fill out seventy one different inputs throughout the interview process, not just speaking to whether or not they got to the question, but what was the question that they answered, how did they answer it and was it in line with the level Lin? It's a contract before you get started that says, okay, if I ask a question and they respond this way, then there are a beginner, but if they respond this way, we will consider that intermediate, and if they touch on these concepts, then we think of them as advanced. And essentially what you're doing there is that you're building not just a less biased process, but you're also building a defensible position. One of the things I really like about on Caredif the you're constantly working with your customers to help them iterate and improve. But when you look at that candidate journey or hiring practices that go awry? How might we know that we have a problem and is there any advice for people leaders who may be struggling? Where should we start to look if things are not going as plan? You have fifty candidates and people of underrepresented communities and those who are not in the hundred percent of your hires are in a second category. So one of the most cases to this is really understanding your funnel and understanding when candidates are dropping out of the process. My suggestion is to evaluate every part of the process. If the job posting, how many people from underrepresented communities are actually applying and you make adjustments to increase at number if it's not in line with what it should be in the market. After that, screen and sure that you're not screening out folks that are from underrepresented communities that seem to have the right qualifications before they even get to that initial text screen. But it's also important, not just in the tech train, to watch every single interviewer at your company. If you have candidates from the communities that you're looking to hire from that are constantly dropping off at that same person in the loop or specific point, then you probably need to reevaluate whether or not you've done the right amount of training to your interviewers or even take a look at your culture on site. I would say the other indication is listen to the candidate make sure we care. We actually will ask the candidate... fill out a survey afterwards. It's pretty extensive because obviously we want to make sure that we capture all of their fewback and we continue to be successful and they have an enjoyable, I think just me talked about that in the beginning, and enjoyable experience, and that's really important. But this is also a chance for them to be able to speak to the experience itself, and so you may want to approach them a little bit on their feedback on specific interviewers. It ties in so clearly with what we're hearing ABOUTDI and general overall, which is that it's there is no one size fits all approach and if you're trying to go at it, I've done x, Y Z and I'm done, you're not making change. And so I love the idea that you're iteration is actually acknowledgement. So you're not only acknowledging that bias exists and it's a huge problem, but you're acknowledging that this is like a process and not like a destination. Will real stop and be done and be perfect. I just see you know so much tie in there. Now another practice that carrot facilitates that I'd love to hear a little bit more about is setting a hiring bar. So tell me what that looks like. Yeah, absolutely. This is really important because, remember, we talked a little bit earlier about those the rubric and how we decide what are our competents. So we build this rubric, but then we also write out the potential answers and how you level those answers. So I'm going to give you an example and then I'll talk about why this is really important. So let's say that I'm hiring a level level three job, a developer, and I have a set of questions around Java. Making sure that you have a pre established hiring bar means that, essentially, in order to determine whether or not this person is a level three, you need to, before the Inter free process, have determined what a level three looks like. So if a level three is that out of the five questions that we asked about Java, maybe four or three of them have to be intermediate, then that's a level three. So then you build that into the process and enture. Okay, folks are figuring out, they're filling out the rubric, they're going back in. They have this defensible position and this candidate came in. We think there are level three, but the only answer two questions intermediate. The rest, for a beginner probably not a level three, even if we like that person. But if a candidate came in and they answered three questions, as we determine before they started the interview, as intermediate, that fits level three. Okay, great, everybody wants to hire this person. Of them, we've leveled them accordingly. This is extremely important because what happens often times advises people say, you know, they're just not capable of doing the job. And in fact, I think I heard at some point when I was hired, there was a leadership team at one of the companies that I was working at and, just as anecdotally, I was hired by a VP of engineering that understood that there were some biases and issues within the team. That being said, when I got the job afterwards,...

...he told me that even though I'd gone into the interview and answered questions. There's no monitoring there and so I know that I answered the questions accordingly. If if they went back to the leadership team and said, Oh, I like her as a person, but she'd be more of a cheerleader rather than an actual contributor, is Yike's right? Yeah, likes really important to have built those rules and have them agree to pomp by the team before you even get started. That buy in also by your team members, which, as a manager, you should bring yourselves all together and determine what's beginner, intermediate and advanced. That buy in ensures that they can't come back and go, Oh, I'm not sure if they're really intermediate, really, because you agreed with all of us that if they gave this answer, which they did, they are an intermediate job at debout. It's back to when we talked about quick hiring can introduce by us. The greatest companies are able to get the right talent at the right time, and that means that they really have a strong pipeline and that pipeline is diverse and robust and full of people who already have an affinity for a brand. Can you talk to me about how you might go about making sure that your pipeline is fully diverse and that you have different voices and point of views in that pipeline. Yeah, absolutely. This is such a hard question. There are so many experts out there and I can tell you some of the pieces that we've heard and our research and working with our clients as some of the suggestions that we make. But essentially, from growing your pipeline perspective, you need to start early, build relationships with HBCUS, work with some of the organizations in the Tech Community, women who code and so on that really amplify candidates who are coming from the backgrounds that you're looking for. I also personally suggest folks build the culture that they're looking for and that they're looking to build, and so do that onsite diversity training. Ensure that your company's involved in these types of conversations and tech there really easy to be a part of. You just need to show up and do that and ask questions. There are a whole lot of organizations that are asking leadership from different large tech companies to come in and do round tables just to discuss this. So just be open to knowing that you need to have an understanding of that culture and of change and technology and be open and willing to take the time to do that. So for us at Carrot, building relationships with talent coding organizations is important, but we also are putting our money where our mouth is. We have a program called brilliant black minds. So we've donated over a million dollars to helping underrepresented communities learn how to interview as they're in university, and so we've done over a million dollars worth of interviews for folks to come and practice and get feedback from our interview engineers. I'll so internally, we've all donated our time as much as possible to meeting with students and candidates from other represented communities and giving them feedback and letting them ask...

US questions. I'll end with a quote from my colleague and who is the head of brilliant black minds program they always say that we need to feed the route and not just pick the fruit. That is a tough quote to follow. I love it. He is was to said person I learned every single day. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know anything. And she's just a wealth of knowledge and patience and kindness with me. I'd want to build a little bit off all these ideas of what we can do in terms of pipelining. But there's also messaging, which is just as important, and that can be a matter of making sure that you're and player. Branding and all of the messaging around it bears out that you're a company that cares about hiring, promoting retaining people from underrepresented groups, that you're walking the talk. Part of that messaging is the job post. Tell us what we should be aware of. This is the beginning of your pipeline. I want to start with a quick anecdote, but this is something that will probably resonate with both of you, but certainly resonates with the folks in the candidates that we speak to, and that is that most women and people have underrepresented communities. If they don't meet just one of your criteria, they will not apply for that job. It just make sure to pair down the requirements for the position as much as possible and there are a lot of tools I can help you do that. The most important thing there is that language matters and in that vein the other thing that you should definitely do is make sure that you're reviewing your job posting for this hyper masculine language, and even your emails, by the way. You're marketing emails. So if you're saying text engineer and Coding Ninja and rock star and rocket ship, needs off for women and people have underrepresented communities. But the flip side of that is that if you remove that type of language and if you remove something that you would traditionally feel as a masculine language, it certainly doesn't turn men off. You'll still have men applying. They're going to apply anyways, and so my suggestion is cater your language and your job postings towards the underrepresented community that you're looking for. I guess the only other thing there, too, is that I think it's about eighty percent of votes that respond to job postings are ment, and so you're not going to lose out. From our previous conversations about this in particular, some of those words that would be considered more feminine are words like empathy and communication and collaboration. And why would that turn a man off? Has such a less extreme vibe than coding Ninja. Feminine Language is actually more on the neutral side or necessary to get the job done. Side by completely agree and actually if you don't mind if I jumped in a little bit there. We talked a little bit about building the culture that you're looking for. If someone has an adverse reaction to empathy, it's probably not the kind of culture... that you want to have more diverse candidates be interested in working. It's funny because I myself have used a lot of that language, like rock star and en x, and if you read any of the books about the Netflix book, it's really pervasive and you want to show that it is a really vibrant culture, and that's such a good lesson for all of us to learn. Are there any others that we need to learn? Thousand percent. Absolutely. Train your interviewers. We talked with about this all the time with our clients and and also ensured that the folks that you're saying are practicing people really care about things that are put on their performance reviews. And I can tell you from personal experience I've never had interviewing as part of my performance review. I've never had it before carrot interview training. I've never been judged on my interviewing skills and in fact I always found it a bit of a hindrance unless that person was really fun to talk to. Of course, I go in and ask the same three questions I was asking for a decade and go back to my work. I would suggest not just training them but adding that as part of their performance review. If you do have the opportunity to record those interviews, record the interviews and review them for quality purposes. We have a secondary quality control, old process, where a second interviewer will watch a video and ensure that the rubric that was being filled out was actually being filled out according to how folks were certified. And so if you have that structure, roubric place and your aligned on your competent season, you know a questions are supposed to be asked, try and record your interviews and review them for quality, especially if you start to see what we talked about earlier, which is a dropoff at a specific interviewer and the process, or that a candidate came back and so that they had issues. This is your way to go back and understand why they were giving that feedback. Was it because what some people think, which is all they did really poorly so and they don't like me because I ask them a tough question? Or is it you have a problem in your interviewer training internally so important, I think. When I think about your own two minute takeaways, that would be one of mine, to make sure that your interviewers are trained and really know what they're looking for. So what would you tell our listeners? Are you know the quick takeaways that they could do today to improve their candidate experience for diverse and underrepresented candidates? I would love for people take four things away from what we talked about today. Make sure that you give interviewing at your company and owner. If, by assigning an engineer or person your organization to optimize each part of your interview and hiring process, you're essentially creating accountability for consistent and quality and best practices and of rest of the enjoyable practices as well. The second thing that I would tell people to do is centralize your interviewing and training. Any time that you have a decentralized processes in consistency can ensue, and inconsistency in your interviewers are...

...danger to your business. Don't just train on the general kind of guidelines. Oh, here's a high level rubric. We want you to look at this part of our mission statement and look for this core value and am. Maybe we want some job in there. That's okay. Make sure that you actually train your interviewers or people that are going to be partaking in interviews on specific questions and ensuring that you set and quality your standards and making sure that you audit your interview. You just talked about that. If you can't record it, maybe you give feedback look for those inconsistencies and they interviews or the the funnel, or maybe you have two people in the room and you do haired interviews to ensure that they're holding each other accountable. The last one is to build your process for data collection from day one. I am, of an engineer by trade. I will tell you over and over again. It may not always land, but I promise you that you should be making data driven decisions and if you build those competencies, you set the rubric, you build that structure in that rigger into your process from the beginning and from early stages, anywhere from your recruitment to your job descriptions all the way through the funnel, you'll be able to iterate and optimize over time and not waste your engineer's time and your time on unpredictive interviews or interviewing even the wrong candidates for your business, especially if you're trying to make an overhaul to the culture and insure that you're including diverse candidates near pipe. Shannon, I just want to thank you so much for sharing this thorough insight into how we can mitigate bias during the pre interview the hiring process. I'd also like to give a special shout out to Shannon's motorcycles. I have a lot of Moto people in my big Italian family, so you know that they will be listening as well and happy to hear the motorcycles. But in all seriousness, you've given our listeners a ton of inspiration. I just know it. So thank you, Shannon. How could our listeners get in touch with you if they want to have more endupth conversation with you or find out more about karat? Oh Gosh, yeah, so first you can always find me on Linkedin, Shannon Hope Brown. I say. You can also email me. It's Shannon Saj and O and at Carrott Kaar ATCOM and of course you're welcome to start conversations and follow me on twitter. That's at Sho gue. And speaking of listeners, thank you as well for tuning in. You can learn more about the show at technically Peoplecom, and that is where you can subscribe on your favorite podcast player. If you turn out to be a big fan of the show, and we hope you will, we would be over the moon if you'd give us a five star review. It's the kind of support that can really make a huge difference for our show. Shoot US an email at technically people, at built Incom, and we will see you next week, when you'll bring you another...

...conversation from thought leaders about the future of work. Built in is a tech recruitment platform that's in constant dialog with leaders about the future of tech. Built in's PODCAST, technically people, expands those conversations to help fellow futurists create in lead, exceptional workplaces, environments that inspire in Demand Tech professionals to join your company and thrive. To learn how built in can help your company attract best in class professionals, visit employers dot built incom. You've been listening to technically people, a community conversation about the future of work. If you want to hear more cutting edge ideas about creating human center workplaces, subscribe on your favorite podcast player. And you'll never miss an episode. And if you're over the moon about what you've heard, we'd be honored if you took the time to give us a five star review. So signing up until we meet again in the future.

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