Technically People
Technically People

Episode · 3 months ago

Recruiters: Say No to Being Treated Like Assistants


Isn’t recruitment the recruiter’s job? Not as we know it. And not if Mike Dwyer has anything to do with it. The Global Talent Acquisition Lead is creating a culture of recruitment at Feedzai, where every employee shares responsibility for talent acquisition. It’s a point of differentiation, he says, since the people doing the work are more likely to build meaningful relationships with candidates.

That culture will free recruiters to evolve, says Dwyer. They’ll become internal talent consultants who empower, enable and educate, delivering the resources employees need to be a vital part of recruitment. Dwyer adds: It’s time recruiters say no to being treated like administrative assistants. Instead, they should own their rightful place as experts. 

In this episode, we discuss:

- The definition of a culture of recruitment

- What the recruiter of the future will do  

- The need for empathy in recruiting and hiring

- Navigating the complexity of post-pandemic return-to-work plans

Find ever y episode of Technically People on Apple, Spotify and mo re. Find us on our website and jo in the conversation on LinkedIn.

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Welcome to technically people acommunity conversation by and for workplace futurists brought to you bythe tech recruitment platform built in the podcast features, insights fromleaders, thinkers and doers on the vanguard of building human centeredworkplaces of the future along the way you'll hear concepts thatwill stop you in your tracks, concepts that inspire you to ask yourself.What's the most future forward way to approach my people leadership, we allknow the future of work isn't waiting around. So, let's get on with the show a welcome listeners. This istechnically people which is a community conversation about building humancentered work places of the future. We interview, thought leaders, thinkers,doers practitioners with insights, about work and in fact what work willlook like when it reaches its highest potential. So I'm your co host, TiffanyMyers and I'm here with my fellow host shared in or shared in how you doingready to make a podcast. I am ready and I'm especially excited to talk to Mikejust in the prep work. He is very interesting and I think we'll be veryprovocative for our listeners. That's right! So let me introduce Mike moreofficially, he is the global Ta lead at feds and Fiza is assass company. That'scommitted to making commerce safe Mike is at a veteran, so he's worked inrolls strategically and tactically for companies, val sizes and all industries.I think it's also important to know that Mike is an Improv comedian. Heperformed with a playground theater for many years, so I think you'll see someof those comedic chops emerge as we speak. So welcome. Welcome Mike. Thank you forbeing here. Thank you know it's a it's a pleasure to be here. A big fan ofbuilt in and I'm really excited to get to conversation, go Antan, beprovocative and funny, and all the other things that I e no pressure. Iknow no pressure yeah, nothing better than whatsoever yeah, nothing betterthan being told to be funny the recipe for disaster. But let's pretend Ididn't say it so tell me what is something that everyone believes to betrue deep in their heart, about recruitment that you are vehementlyopposed to yeah. I would say that what I'm venly opposed to thinking thatrecruiting is the recruiters job, isn't that your job is something that, when Italk about when I talk to key stake holders within the organizations thatI've worked about, building a recruiting culture within theOrganization of what that means, meaning that everyone in the company isa recruiter. There are people who think is that your job to do the recruiting?And then I educate them on what is really happening today in the market,even more so since the pandemic, in the fact that the people have the choice togo over, they want there's zero unemployment, the technology space orclose to that and every candidate is being reached out to by four fivedifferent recruiters staffing firms, all with the variety of levels ofexperience or understanding of what they're actually recruiting and there's. No, it's cans are numb to it,so the employees, the people, actually dothe jobs that are the leaders within these organizations. They have a muchbetter chance building a relationship with a target candidate sooner than therecruiter, and the recruiter I see is more of a facilitator of thatexperience, and also just development of pipelines and sourcing strategies toconnect with those folk aligned with a strong employment brand. That'sbuilding out content that also shares what it's like to work within thecompany yeah. I know that you said when you joined fide, so did your employerbrand expert, so you made sure to bake that in from day one. So I...

...want you to define a little bit morefor our listeners. What a culture of recruitment means. Well, I mean from one standpoint I'msaying everyone's a recruiter and people can say what isn't that your job.I have a job which is totally true right, but they do have a job and, ifyou're in the text base, your job is probably wearing a lot of hats dealwith a lot of ambiguity, building something with building the plane,while it's flying, etc to build that returning culture and empower employeesbe involved. You have to always be thinking about how you're scaling it,and so, when I'm talking about people helping with recruitment, we want toempower them, and so I see giving hiring managers leaked in critter seats,creating customers templates for them to reach out giving them a number ofreach it out reaches that they need to do on a weekly basis and then,following up with them and the rest of the team, once high managers see thatpeople are actually getting back to them and they're great candidates e,that's really a big driver, but we have to do it in a way. That's scalable, sothat it's not taking up a big part of their day and that's the thing withwhen you're talking to people about building are critic culture. Is thatthey're like? Why don't have a time for that? Well, actually, you do. Itactually will, if it's done right, we'll only take you, maybe fifteentwenty minutes a day and maybe two phone calls a week if you're doing wellwith people that you actually find that are interesting and then you of coursehand them off to recruiting and we take it from there. But there's ways to makethis not be such a heavy lift or something that's intimidating. I knowyou're fired up about is about the fact that two many recruiters are treated asadministrative assistance. Well, there's a lot of things aboutrecruiting an HR that haven't changed for years. Recruitment was a fairlyadministrative role because there was not the league in didn't exist. It wasvery hard for hiring managers or people within organization to even be involvedand you're posting ads of newspapers or the people were sending theirapplications, be an email to an end box that all the recruiters had disabilityinto and then being reached out to and set up interviews and stuff, and so itwas really hard for that. But now because the technologists out therewere able to empower people more to be involved, but it was fairlyadministrative. I tell my team and all the time that we're the experts whenyou're a recruiter and you're dealing with humans, like the level that we are,who are very complex and all the issues are challenges that come up when you'retaking on a human from one company and bringing them over to another companylike this is a massive endeavor. It's impressive that it happens ever.Basically, when you think about the complexity of people and how differenteveryone is. The means are different and then we're able to do that and then,when you're working with the high manager- and they are havingunrealistic demands or just like just give me- The hid more profiles andprofiles means humans. Any more humans. The higher manger, looksed Ed a verycommoditized way at times, and so we have to educate them and they evenunderstand that we're the experts and that we're not here just processing andpushing paper or scheduling interviews. We are a collaborative partner and that,more often than not, we have a much better idea of what is ned to help filla role than the higher ant does. So how do we bring in more profile humans intothe organization or into the pipe line in a collaborative way right we'retrying to have a competine differentiator, and I think that moreoften than not, that's actually leveraging the people that work withinthe organization. That's the competitive differentiate. I want tofind out from you how does engaging employees across the organizationItalian to engagement levels? Yeah, I mean, if you're, not referring peopleinto the organization, if you're not happy there right. So you couldprobably some intent tie referrals into employee engagement if your referralraise increasing, especially from where people that have been in the companyfor a longer period of time, because...

...they're fairly happier, I think that,especially when you're especially like when your marketing then eternallyyou're, showing them what it's like to work in Dataset got a data sciencemanager talking about the organization talking about what they're lookingforward to candia talking about the court value that resonates with them.The boast for their team, all of thes positively enforcement, theorganization being given to employees by people who work there, notnecessarily the CEO or the HR leader, but by the actual people. So it hits acouple of different facts to a couple different initiatives in almost any HRte right, employee engagements, always it's always on the top three and, ofcourse, driving referrals and hiring faster, better people. So you had earlier talked about one ofthe problems being how recruiters are perceived versus whatthey do and actually, in our last conversation we talked about an article,that's still to this day, fairly famous. That is about that. Really it's aboutperception versus reality and if that Fast Company, article written by thedeputy editor of Fast Company titles, probably to stir the pot a little bit,why we hate HR and overall the author fires off a ton of salvos around theprofession, so hr isn't business savvy enough hr isn't joined at the hip withexecutives. H R is behold into the chief financial officer, which meansthat they focus instead on cutting benefits and and pay roll. So fiveyears later, there was a follow up in fast company title, a little bit moreon the soft side. Why shouldn't we hate hr so still a while back in twenty ten?And what that author does the the CO founder of Fast Company? Is He flips?The script puts the onus on companies, so if companies are not as invested inhumans and in culture as they are in, I say the bottom line: they're not goingto save it seat at the table for the recruiter, the HR professional anyoneinvolves in Ta and player branding, etc. So, Mike Again, this is we're talkingabout two thousand five and twenty ten. It seems like a eons ago, one decade and one pandemiclater. How have things changed and how have things stayed the same? Yeah Imean it's so exciting. I mean it's really an excited time to be alive tobe leadership within R department. For myperspective, a lot of things are happening today or things that I wasdreaming about ten years ago. I remember recruiting and doing salesbefore league, in that, my God, how that changed everything changed thiscold, calling all that way away really for the most part, building out anorganic presence of your expertise to help build relationships with prospectswith something that I thought was a much better, more genuine way ofselling and recruiting and that's coming to fruition now technology. Froma I mean you look at the HR tech landscape, it's it's stupid, there'sjust so much HR technology out there across all the different areas that arebeing used to leverage and help create data to Bel, to line with the businessmore. So that has changed a lot in the last ten fifteen to ten plus years.Empathy has become a key ingredient of making a company successful more sothan anything because a glass door, which I am not a fan of I'll- put thaton the record right now and right here, not a fan of glass door, because theInternet is a negative place and people are very much able to they'll easilypost something negative versus something positive. But there issomething to it and that it is forcing companies to be a bit more transparentand they have to especially the CEOS. They have a big target on their backwith glass door. They have a specific grading they on there and that bothersthem. It's bothered every co that I've...

...worked with, and I think there's someposies around that and they have to be better with their people because theydon't like having their name out there with people. You know, especially ifyou have ten or fifteen reviews, and they all say the exact same thing yeah.That's there's some truth to that, although it's a kind of an echo chamberas well. So some of it's probably them reading the review like yeah. I agreewith that, but because of just the ability for the whole review world thatas live in today, I think there's a lot of need to make sure that you aretreating people well and then I think the pandemic has done a lot of justthink of the the percentage of women in this country who are out of work versusban because of the pandemic right, just a massive difference there and the factthat men have had to be at home working at home, taking care of their kids andthey're, like Oh, my God, that this is a really a job, big surprise there. Buteven leaders right. So I think, there's there's a lot more of a level playingfield in understanding people's plants, and you can even take that into what'sbeen going on with the black lives matter movement and then we're allseeing and understanding more other people's challenges. And because ofthat, we have to change how we work and how we manage people to some extent,and I think that's I think- that's really exciting. It's just thebeginning, there's so much work that needs to be done, but we're going tohave to as companies really change how we're working. Sooner than later, Ithink yeah. So I think the pandemic is also a perfect example of how how ovidhas made it more okay, somewhat more okay, to talk about mental illness, andthat in fact requires empathic leadership, a thousand per cent. So, aswe started out this conversation, I think we were talking about all thework there was to be done for the recruiter in the way that the roleneeds to change and now we're hearing from you all of the progress and alsoall of these opportunities that are really exciting to you about where wecan go, and so look looking into your crystal ball. If you have one- and noneof us do, but we can pretend paying a picture of the of the future of ideal recruiters role yeah, I think.Ideally, we come to a place and there's going to technology has to come thereto some extent as well, where we have been able to move into that more of astrategic consultative mindset across the board with recurring, which we'renot at an some of that is just people that are more junior, that don't have alot of years of experience and aren't willing to stand up to a manager andsay no. But if the technology is there, if the Datas there and if it's easy toaccess than they have a better conversation around. How we have areally great ats reporting, isn't great, it's a very common problem and we haveto use a data visualization tool connected to that to help tell thosestories. But it's still not completely there, and so until we get to a place.I think where the data is easily modified and it's easy to digest forthe P person putting it together and able to share it and the person who'sreading and digesting it. That's going to continue to be a bit of a challenge.I would love to see as a more of an employment brand standard for companiesjust that we're empathetic. We care about your mindset that it's somethingthat's more a leading point in a competitive differentiator as opposedto benefits, okay, a full refrigerator of LAKRI. That's what I would like tosee and hope to see. So that was a beautiful snapshot of an ideal futurefor the recruiter and I think, a perfect way to close out part one andI'd love to kick it over to share it in for part two thanks Tiffany! So Mike you talked alot about how two thousand and twenty changed it for the recruiter. But Ithink the candidate changed a whole lot too, and it's been very interesting tosee some of those transitions. I think...

I did a report for our board called themigratory patterns of the tech professionals. We saw them leaving someof you know the hot spots like San Francisco and New York, like certainlythey're migrating back, but you know it really became a much more distributedgoing to work for us than we'd ever seen before, and Bromo really empowered.Some of that and I'd love to just talk with you about some of the things thathave changed with the candidates, like certainly where they want to live, isan important one, but have you noticed anything else? As you're trying to fillroles? I think that the horses left, the Barn and the some of the thcompanies are getting it and they're Google s able to make offers that areGoogle cop prices in Chattanooga Tennessee, and here that that person'sgoing to go there, I just lost a sorcer in London to a roll, a tick tack, and Icould compete with tick tock like what we have a great relationship get great.It was looking so good, the tick tock came and he took her right away. So Isee the bigger C check. Companies get it, they can offer competitive com, andemployees have already been proven out that they can work from home. Theyprovenit themselves and we have to really relook at our locationstrategies to fill roles, because the job market is even tighter than it wasbefore the pend yeah internally we're calling it the roaring is because teconI've never seen tech unemployment, this low- and it's like there was all thispent up demand from people slowing hiring during two thousand and twentyjust to see where things shook out. So there's this pent up demand, but alsoespecially in the tech roles. We started to see that the companies whothrived were those who had already been investing in their technology and nowthose companies that maybe were laggers are doubling down and it's an insanemarket. I mean great candidates, have multiple offers. What would be youradvice to a talent leader that is really struggling in that, and I knowin getting the hiring managers and turning the organization into arecruiting organization is part of that. But is there anything specific we cando yeah and my boss, the head of HR forfeeds e? She just did a go location, podcast actually just went live todayon our site. Talking about this specific thing, and it comes down tothe data and looking at two thousand and twenty and what was theproductivity level? How do the performance from yews go? Were they?What was he the base line of the business? Did it to sales increase? Didit maintain that it did a lot a little? What was your attrition rate and, ifyou're, seeing that those things were not going down or statement, you'vepulled your employees and they're more often than not want to be working fromhome, then it's something that you really need to look at and put in place the right kind of way tosupport people that kind of environment as well right, and if you are a companythat was spending a lot on real estate, take some of that money invested inflying people in and getting them in, but together once I guarantee, I'm sureyou're saying still stating a ton of money and how can you engage with themand send them things that are swag and whatnot celebrating them in other ways?I think that's really something that is important. One thing that I did sharewith you guys that I saw from Amazon was this disclaimer that they areputting into their emails now about being truly human, and it is it'sacknowledging it's like a disclaimer, you put it the bottom youknow. It saysthat you are someone who were digitally driven organization. Things Happen tofast pace, I'm sending you emails at a specific time. For me, I don't expectan exit that response from you immediately it's on your timeline andwhen you're comfortable to get that...

...back to me. So it's like those are thetypes of things that we should be doing, especially if we're not working in thesame office and we're working with people in different time zones toacknowledge and be more empathetic to them as we're rolling into this siteworld. That's such a valuable lesson to make sure that you are really thinkingabout who you're sending emails to the other big thing that we're noticing isthe great resignation right. So we got the roaring twenties and the greatresignation, and it's very interesting when we start to think about. What'sdriving that and they're really three mitigating factors? First, people arewaiting for the vaccine policies or to get their vaccines to figure out whatthat's going to look like before they return to the office. The other one is,I mean it's been a hell of a year, excuse my language and I think a lot ofpeople are looking for some time off and to enjoy vacations and see lovedones that they may be missed for the years so they're taking extendedvacations and what we're also saying is somepeople actually are changing jobs to have almost that gap here between onejob and the x, the next, so that you have a long period before you have torestart. When you think about that great resignation, how do you combatthat or make sure that you're keeping the talent that you need to stay happyand even getting them to help you bring in t o those new having a mandatorycoming back to the office after being a remote for a year? To some extent, itsmells a little bit like mistrust and that you don't trust your employees orthat you need to have them around you, which is very one thousand e s kind ofmentality as far as I'm concerned, and so how you have to trust people. Butyou should be able look at your data to see what the reality of it was right.It was back to your last your last question, but in pretention I thinkempathy is going to go a long way and you can look at all the different waysthat you can make those signals to people and also just admitting thatyou're not perfect. We are running a business, we are trying to beprofitable, but we also have made mistakes and involving under a lot ofpressure and here's how some of the ways that were going to help mitigatethat in the future, along with, of course, the opportunities and makingsure that you're evaluating getting people consistent feedback andincensing. Now, in the right like, we just did a big survey about the greatreturn to work and a lot of companies have not finalized their policy, and Ithink employees and candidates are waiting to see what that looks likewhen you think about formulating a policy like what do you think we shouldbe really considering what I love is we keep coming back to empathy andemotional Iq and it's common sense right, but I just a lot of companies.Blood leaders don't get it right, like put yourself in the shoes of youremployees. Put yourself into the shoes of a working mother who has is tryingto juggle multiple things from her children to working to put yourselfinto the shoes of your fairly entry level, employee who has three roommatesand they don't have any place to work and I'm giving two different examplesright. There might be a working for a mom who would love to be able to stayat home right and then you have a person with three roommates. whosabsolutely wants to come into the office, and so people are complex and Ithink that they have to come up with a flexible solution that needs everyone'sneeds first and then second, look at how your potentially able to say somemoney somewhere and insure productivity. But at first it's like understand youremployee. If you have a large organization, I know that can bechallenging where you have twenty different people with twenty differenttypes of person. As of people who have twenty different needs, so you have tomake some decisions somewhere on where you're going to cut off like what youcan enable. I do think, though, a couple of different offering and thencollecting data over the next year is...

...important, but you have to do somethingmake the call no thin. There's no perfect anse, as never happened. Ithink that's going to be my we're getting ready to go into our two minute.Take Away and look we're not going to get this perfect because, as you said,it's I hate. The word. UNPRECEDENT has never become a cliche for me, but nowit's one that I find myself over using because everything does seem like it'sthe first time we've ever done this, and so I think, as leaders were justall going to have to do what you said: Listen be empathetic and make calls that may not be perfect butiterate on them and continue to refine, and that's really how you create thefuture of work. So I really enjoyed our conversation and, frankly, have learnedquite a bit and I even as a higher manager, because I would say that I donot put the time into recruiting that you have said I need to, and at the endof the day it is the people o who make our company at success, and so we wantto all join together to bring in the best talent that we possibly can. Sothose are my type ways from our conversation. I'd love to know whatwhat three things should our listeners, if you could just tell him like heythese, are the three most important things one would be. He empathetic to the toyour fellow employees were the people that work for you and the candidatesthat are out there. Looking for jobs really put yourself in there, shoots,use your imagination and think it's not that hard and really think about that,and what they're going through another is that building recruitin culturedoesn't necessarily take hours and days and weeks to do right.There is a way to come up with the process to scale it and enable peopleto be a part of it, and it's going to ultimately get you better morequalified people faster and it's going to strengthen the engagement of youremployees and then the other one is for recruiters be confident. You are theexperts. You are the ones on the front line, you're the ones with all thescars from the people coming out of nowhere with something that you weresure you had them and they something came out because people are complex butknow that trust. Your Gut be the expert that you are and be confident atleverage data with the cat so like this is a year that the HR community isreally supported one another in a way I had not seen before and learned on tofly together. So if any of our listeners want to get in touch with you,what is the best way to do that linked in this Tu m, a massive linkedinuser, not promiscuously? By the way, I have a very cultivated network ofpeople, but anyone who was listening to this podcast I'm happy to connect with,and I'm always I always enjoy helping other people. That's a big macher fromthank you so much, and I just love the passion and insight that you bring intothe space and enjoyed our conversation today for listeners. If you'd like tolearn more about us, you can visit us at technically PEPCO, where you'll findthe latest episodes and block post on these key topics. You can alsosubscribe to technically people on your favorite podcast player. Thank you forspending some time with us today and we look forward to having you join us onour next episode built in is a tech recruitment platform.That's in constant dialogue with leaders about the future of tech,Bilton's podcast. Technically people expands those conversations to ELPfellow futurist, create and lead exceptional workplaces; environmentsthat inspire in Demand Tech professionals to join your company andthrive to learn how building can help your company attract besting classprofessionals, visit employers top built Incom...'ve been listening to technicallypeople a community conversation about the future of work. If you want to hearmore cutting edge ideas about creating human center, workplaces subscribe onyour favorite podcast player and you'll never miss an episode and, if you'reover the moon about what you've heard we'd be honored. If you took the timeto give us a five star review so signing off until we meet again in thefuture, I.

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